Chapter 3: Ask what happened, not what people want, lesson 1 of 7

Ask about the past, not the future

Why "would you use this?" gets you a polite yes and nothing else. Interview a lunch organiser yourself, then learn the three rules that get the truth.

By 5 min read, 15 min of exercises

Warm-up

From last time. Mia spent Monday with Anna, an office manager. Is each of these something Anna said, or something Mia saw?

  1. If Tiffin built a link, she'd definitely use it.

    Right, it's something Anna said. It's a guess about her own future. Saying it costs her nothing.

    Not quite. It's something Anna said. It's a guess about her own future. Saying it costs her nothing.

  2. Her notebook shows she's $157 short this month.

    Right, it's something Mia saw. Mia saw it on the page. It doesn't depend on what Anna remembers or wants.

    Not quite. It's something Mia saw. Mia saw it on the page. It doesn't depend on what Anna remembers or wants.

  3. She calls the order in by eleven, about ten minutes after she starts.

    Right, it's something Mia saw. Mia watched it happen, and timed it.

    Not quite. It's something Mia saw. Mia watched it happen, and timed it.

Last time, Mia, Tiffin’s research lead, spent a day with Anna. The hard part of team lunch wasn’t placing the order. It was getting paid back.

But one manager is one manager. So this week, Mia talks to five more people. On Tuesday, she hands one interview to you, Tiffin’s new designer.

Think first

Mia, research lead, to you: Ken runs lunch for a charity office of 15 people. You have twenty minutes with him. I’ll take notes.

What’s the first question you’d ask Ken?

You

Which of these is closest to your answer?

Shirish

He’ll probably say yes. Most people do. But would that yes tell you anything you could act on?

What could you ask instead, that he can’t just be kind about?

Shirish

It’s a fair start. But a how do you question gets the tidy version, the way it’s meant to work.

How could you get the messy version, the way it went last time?

Shirish

That asks for one real day, not a habit or a wish. Real days have problems in them.

What would you ask next, once he starts telling it?

Shirish

Closer. But it assumes ordering is where the trouble is. What if it isn’t?

How could you let Ken show you where the trouble is?

You

What this means

You’ll find out in a minute which questions work. Ken is ready. You get five questions, so choose them well.

Interview Ken

Role-play

Your interview with Ken

Ken is a programme officer at a charity with 15 staff. The office orders lunch together most days. Tiffin is made up for this course, and so is Ken.

Pick a question, and read Ken's answer. You can ask 5 of the 12, in any order. After your fifth, you'll see what each question got.

Pick your next question 5 of 5 questions left
Read every question, and Ken's answer
How often do you order lunch for the office? (Estimate)
Most days, I'd say. Well, every other week it's me. We take turns.
How do you order lunch for the team? (General)
We rotate. Whoever orders that week pays, and we settle at month end. It works.
Tell me about the last time you settled up. (Past and specific)
End of August. It took most of an hour on a Friday. It always turns into an argument. Paul was away three days, but the sheet said he ate. And my week had more people than Julia's, so I'd paid about $200 more than her.
Would you use group ordering if Tiffin had it? (Would you? (the future))
Sure, sounds handy. I'd probably use it.
We're building a link where everyone adds their own meal. What do you think? (Pitch)
Oh, nice. Yes, send it to me when it's ready.
What's the hardest part of ordering, how long does it take, and would a link help? (Three in one)
Ten, fifteen minutes. Somebody always changes their mind.
How would you rate Tiffin, out of 10? (Rating)
Eight? The food's good. Ordering's fine.
What happened the last time someone was away in their own week? (Past and specific)
Someone else took it, and then the sheet was wrong, because two people paid that week. We fix it at month end. Or we don't, and it becomes the argument.
Walk me through last Wednesday, from the group chat to the food. (Past and specific)
At half past ten I ask who's in. Nine that day, six were out on a site visit. I put each meal in the cart and pay on my card. Ten, fifteen minutes. The food came at one.
Could I see last month's sheet, with names hidden? (Show me)
Sure. (opens it) See, Paul's three days are crossed out. This person paid me in three parts. It's the sheet and the money, not the food.
Is there anything I didn't ask that I should have? (Open, at the end)
The rota was meant to be fair. It's fair on paper. In real life, the person with the busy week pays more. Two of our juniors asked to come off it.
So the main problem is ordering, right? (Leading)
Well, yes, I suppose. Ordering can be slow.
Ken's answers come from Mia's real interview notes, written for this course.

Finish your interview with Ken first. Then the lesson goes on.

What the best questions had in common

The questions that found Ken’s problem all asked about something that already happened. The last settle-up, a real week, the actual sheet. The ones that asked about the future got kindness.

Rob Fitzpatrick wrote three rules for this, in a book called The Mom Test. It’s called that because even your mom should be able to answer honestly.

  1. Talk about their life, not your idea. Once you describe your idea, people try to be nice about it.
  2. Ask about real things in the past, not guesses about the future. Would you use it? is a guess. Tell me about the last time is a fact.
  3. Talk less, and listen more. Their words are the data. Yours only get in the way.

I learned this the same way, in a role-play with a made-up office manager.

Shirishfrom my own practice

My ten questions, and the one that worked

I asked ten questions. My most excited answers came from asking about the future. What would make her use it? Would it make her switch? She said, I’d definitely use it. It meant nothing.

The real problem came out with my tenth and last question, about how she collects the money. Two of my ten questions found it. Both asked about something that had already happened.

A thought experiment: the beetle in a box

Thought experiment

The beetle in a box

Ludwig Wittgenstein, Philosophical Investigations, 1953

Imagine everyone has a small box with something inside. They all call it a beetle. Nobody can look in anyone else’s box. Each person only knows what a beetle is from their own.

So when someone says beetle, can you know what’s in their box? Some boxes might hold something different. Some might be empty. Nobody would ever find out.

Think first

Ken rated Tiffin eight out of 10, and said ordering is fine. He also said the month end always turns into an argument.

Which tells you more about how Ken’s lunch really goes?

You

Pick the answer closest to yours.

Shirish

It looks exact. But what’s inside Ken’s 8? Your 8 might be his 6. Nobody can look in the box.

What did Ken describe that you could check for yourself?

Shirish

Yes. An hour on a Friday, Paul’s three days, $200 more than Julia. You could check every part of it.

So what would you ask, to turn a word like fine into something you could see?

Shirish

Can they both be true, in the way they sound? A month end that ends in an argument, and lunch that’s fine?

Which one could you check?

You

What this means

Words like fine, painful and 8 out of 10 are beetles. They come from inside a box you can’t open. They mean something only when you tie them to something you can see: an hour, a sheet, $200.

I caught this in my own role-play. My office manager said ordering was a bit painful. Then she rated the app 8 out of 10. My reaction was: If it was painful, how could it be 8 out of 10?

Words from this lesson

Past-behaviour question
A question about something that really happened: when, how, and what came next. In this lessonTell me about the last time you settled up.
Hypothetical question
A question about a future the person has never lived. It gets guesses, not facts. In this lessonWould you use group ordering if Tiffin had it?
Social desirability
Answering in the way that sounds good, or kind, instead of what’s true. In this lessonKen rates the app 8 out of 10 to the person who works there.

Back to your first answer

Your first answer

Your answer

Your answer will show here after you write one at the top of this page.

You've read the lesson. Would you change your answer?
Good. Which part of this lesson backs your answer?

Your bet: how many of Ryan’s questions will work?

Your bet

On Friday, Ryan Brooks, the product manager, runs his first interview. He talks to Dana, a studio manager. Mia sits in and notes every question he asks.

Of Ryan’s 21 questions, how many will get something useful? Make your bet, and say how sure you are.

Your guess
How sure are you?

You'll find the answer in Lesson 3.2: Spot the questions that get you nothing.

Try this during the week: ask a friend about the last time something annoyed them in an app. Then ask whether they’d use a fix for it. Notice which answer has more in it.

Sources

  • Rob Fitzpatrick, The Mom Test, 2013. The three rules for asking about people’s lives, not your idea.
  • Ludwig Wittgenstein, Philosophical Investigations, 1953, section 293. The beetle in a box.
  • The role-play is from my own practice. Tiffin, Mia, Ken and Ryan are made up for this course.
Portrait of Shirish Shikhrakar

Written by

Shirish Shikhrakar

Shirish is a Google-certified UX designer and UX engineer based in Kathmandu, Nepal. He started as a software developer, moved into product design for Silicon Valley startups, and has taught UX foundations to hundreds of designers since 2019.

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